YESHUA IN "MESSIANIC" PASSAGES

ORI Rambsel specifically states that most of these occurrences of Yeshua occurred in a verse relating to the Messiah. I would ask them to figure the statistical significance of that but you can't statistically analyze relevance therefore this is a moot question and only points out the inadequacy of statistical analysis in such a case.

RESPONSE YESHUA IN "MESSIANIC" PASSAGES

The issue of "interpretation" and "relevance" has been effectively addressed numerous times in this response. However, we will briefly address it again. After everything that has been written and clearly explained, Grant Jeffrey and Pastor Rambsel still insist on talking about "Yeshua being found encoded in 'Messianic' passages." The errors they make are so fundamental as to betray a total ignorance of the most elementary principles of Codes, statistics, and basic logic. The degree to which Mr. Jeffrey in particular is both out of his depth, and unaware of that fact, is evident in the gross statistical errors concerning prophecy that he makes in every one of his wildly popular books.

We are not saying that a deliberately inserted Code has no relevance to the text it was placed in. If God deliberately encoded a word into a particular passage then, of course, there must be a connection to the text. However, since we are not God, we have no way of knowing what the correct message is that God wants us to get. The nature of the Codes phenomenon cannot provide us with an answer to this question. However, even if one still wants to attempt to interpret the meaning or message of a Code based on the specific passage it was found in, one must first distinguish BEFORE you have demonstrated that the ELS is indeed a Code and AFTER you have demonstrated that an ELS was deliberately inserted into the text. To say that an ELS must be a deliberately inserted Code BECAUSE it is found in a passage that you feel is conceptually connected to that Code is illogical and, sadly, is a clear and potent demonstration of the type of mind and thought process that exists in the people who make such absurd claims. You will find words like Yeshua, Moon, etc. millions of times, backwards and forwards, sideways, upside down, etc. It will appear in every single passage and page in the Bible.

Therefore, saying "we found Yeshua in this 'messianic' passage and it proves that the billions of non Christians are all living wrong" is nonsense - and morally offensive - because they don't say how you will also find that word everywhere, in every passage, including passages whose message could be interpreted in the opposite way. In fact, you find conflicting and contradictory information in that same 'messianic' passage because 'Moon' or 'Koresh' or 'Mohammed' are also coded in there. It is only AFTER you have demonstrated that an ELS you found is not like the hundreds of billions of coincidental ELS's that exist in the Torah, and it was deliberately inserted by God, that you can possibly attempt to figure out what was in God's mind when he inserted that Code in that particular passage. This is where the "Yeshua codes" proponents are profoundly in error - they switch the order.

Mr. Jeffrey claims that the proof that these Yeshua ELS's ARE Indeed Codes is BECAUSE "Yeshua appears encoded in key 'messianic' passages" and "at very small jumps." This is, unfortunately, pure nonsense.

1) Yeshua appears at an ELS over 600,000 times - everywhere, every page, and in every passage. Knowing this, how can anyone still babble about "Yeshua in 'messianic' passages"? Furthermore, Mr. Jeffrey's entire " proof" is based on the " fact" that these Yeshua ELS's appear in 'messianic' passages. He fails to tell the innocent reader that it is a matter of great debate for thousands of years whether or not these passages are indeed "messianic" !!

2) If you randomly rearrange the letters of these "messianic" passages, you will also find Yeshua there. This clearly demonstrates that the Yeshua ELS's in these passages are coincidences.

3) You will find Mohammed, Buddha, Koresh, Moon, Krishna, etc. in "messianic" passages also.

4) Mr. Jeffrey and Pastor Rambsel mention in their books a number of "messianic" passages where short ELS's of Yeshua, or ELS phrases with the word Yeshua, appear. Some of the passages we are shown that contain these ELS's are: Genesis (3), Isaiah (53), Isaiah (61), Zechariah (11), Psalms (22) Psalms (41), Ruth (1), and Daniel (9). What they neglect to reveal to the unsuspecting reader is that Reverend Moon's name is encoded in EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THESE PASSAGES ALSO - AND AT SMALLER JUMPS THAN YESHUA!

5) Grant Jeffrey shows on page 224 of his book how Yeshua is "encoded" once, at a jump of 24 letters, in a 'messianic' passage in Zechariah (11). Mr. Jeffrey fails to tell the reader that "Moon" is encoded in this same 'messianic' passage THREE times and at MUCH SMALLER JUMPS than Yeshua (5, 6, and 15)!

6) On page 226, Mr. Jeffrey shows us how Yeshua is "encoded" once, at a jump of 26 letters (going backwards), in a "messianic" passage in Daniel(9). Unfortunately, Mr.Jeffrey is again caught red handed! He conveniently forgot to tell everybody that this Yeshua ELS extends into a completely different passage that is not 'messianic'! More importantly, "Moon" is encoded in this same 'messianic' passage FOUR times - all going FORWARDS - all completely encoded WITHIN this passage - and all of them at MUCH SMALLER JUMPS than Yeshua (3, 3, 16, and 20)! Furthermore, Mohammed is also encoded within this same 'messianic' passage at the small jump of 30!

7) One of the most often quoted 'messianic' passages is in Deuteronomy (Chapter 18 - verses 15-22). It is interesting how Jeffrey and Rambsel are silent about finding Yeshua encoded in this famous 'messianic' passage. Their silence is deafening. The reason they don't mention it is because Yeshua does not appear there at all! However, Reverend Moon's name IS encoded in this 'messianic' passage - at the minimum jump of 3!!! In fact, the Moon code, which begins with the letter "Mem" in the word "Acheyhem" in verse 18, is encoded in the words "I will establish a prophet for them from among their brethren"!! (There are literally thousands of examples of "counter codes").

PAPER This control test illustrates that there is no evidential value at all to the finding of "Yeshua" in the Hebrew Bible.

LORI If the 4-letter word Yeshua NEVER has any value then this should also hold true for the word YH-WH. I'd like to see them explain that to the creator of the earth.

RESPONSE This comment clearly indicates how "Yeshua codes" people don't understand what Codes and Codes research is all about. "No evidential value" means that their existence does not constitute evidence of intentional encoding. To use the mere existence of these ELS's as evidence or proof of deliberate encoding is fraudulent and deceptive. Furthermore, YH-WH is encoded hundreds of thousands of times in the Hebrew translation of Mein Kampf and any Woody Allen book. Did God write those books?

PAPER Moreover, it is precisely control tests such as these (among many other types of measures) that were used to validate the legitimate Torah Codes. This was accomplished by demonstrating that, unlike all of Rambsel's "Yeshua codes,"

LORI "All"? Perhaps he's forgetting about phrases I mentioned above and below that Yacov has found and word pairs with the same ELS right next to each other.

RESPONSE Rambsel's patterns and phrases will be found in the translations of the Koran, Mein Kampf, and any Woody Allen book. This fact proves how all the claims concerning "encoded" phrases are nonsense.

PAPER The legitimate Torah Codes (i.e., "Famous Rabbis") do not appear anywhere else except in the Torah.

LORI How are we supposed to know that when they haven't published any more of their research? If we ever get to the point where we can proceed with our own research on TCODE we may just prove them wrong. But on the other hand how many times should we expect G-d to encode the names of Rabbis and where?

RESPONSE The entire point has been missed - again. The point is that you will NOT find the authentic Codes in random texts, while you WILL find the Rambsel/Jeffrey "codes" and "phrases" in any random Hebrew text. Furthermore, every single Yeshua "code" or "phrase" that will be found in the future using the subjective Rambsel/Jeffrey methodology will also be found in random Hebrew texts. Therefore, it is absolutely ridiculous to use these coincidental ELS's to prove anything, and it reflects terribly on the intellectual honesty and integrity of the people who are doing so.

PAPER Rambsel claims that extracting "Yeshua" from "messianic" passages provides evidence that Yeshua is the Messiah. However, we extracted "Yeshua" from hundreds of passages that have no connection to the concept of Messiah.

LORI Did they happen to check on either end of the word Yeshua to see if there were more words encoded which would change the relevant passage to another? Why should they? It might mess up their theory.

RESPONSE A. We will say it again - If one would read the Mechanic/Witztum/Gans paper carefully, one would see that the most basic and fundamental fact concerning Codes research, and simple logic for that matter, is that the POSSIBILITY of being "subjective," "interpretive," or discovering a message in an ELS based on the passage it was found in, exists only AFTER it has been demonstrated that the ELS has been deliberately inserted in the text and it is indeed a Code! And the inescapable truth is, as these Codes experts showed, that even after you've proven an ELS to be a genuine Code (which Rambsel/Jeffrey have never done) subjective or interpretive comments about that specific Code are, at best, imaginative speculation and impossible to know for sure. To state otherwise is, literally, like saying "In my worldview, and the way I feel like conducting my subjective research and 'interpretation,' 2+2=5, and I have a right to believe that."

B. Using the Rambsel/Jeffrey methodology yielded "codes" that Jesus is a False Messiah and False Prophet. "Yeshu" is encoded at the significant jump of seven and Mohammed at the (Islamic) significant jump of 19, both crisscrossing in the passage of False Prophets. There are DOZENS of very complex and sophisticated examples showing Jesus to be a False Prophet and False Messiah. Does all of this "mess up your theory"?

PAPER Therefore, it cannot, by definition, be used as evidence in the objective validation process necessary to determine whether an equidistant letter sequence is a genuine Code.

LORI Did anyone ever recall Yacov stating that he was seeking objective validation???

RESPONSE A. Yes! Why does Rambsel attempt to objectively validate the material in his book with a whole chapter on (false) probabilities?!

B. The most basic and fundamental concept and requirement concerning Codes continues to conveniently go over their heads. We'll say it again. (Although I am now convinced that I am dealing with people who think the following statement has validity: "Subjectively, I have a right to have 'faith' that 2+2=5 - even though you can objectively prove that it equals 4"). There are HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS of ELS's in the Torah. Virtually every conceivable word or phrase will appear hundreds of thousands of times at an ELS. Therefore, you must demonstrate that the ELS was deliberately inserted in the text and is not a coincidence. This can ONLY be accomplished through statistics and probabilities - THERE IS NO OTHER WAY! Therefore, you must demonstrate, mathematically and statistically, that the ELS is a deliberate Code.

PAPER ...or there are other potential Messiahs that, until now, we were unaware of.

LORI How many do you need?

RESPONSE The whole point has been missed again. The point is that if the Rambsel and Jeffrey methodology yields "codes" showing Mohammed, Koresh, Moon, etc to be the Messiah, then it is shamefully deceptive to only show the Yeshua "codes" because either all these names are appearing by accident, or God is saying they were all the Messiah - which is impossible. You can't have it both ways.

PAPER Rambsel writes how, in Chapter 41 of Psalms, "Yeshua" appears in a "messianic" passage.

LORI HALT! Let's not forget about the "PHRASE" that Yacov found in this passage, i.e., "Yeshua the polished Jewel" at an ELS of 14 starting on the 8th word 1st letter of verse 9 (yod, shin, vav, ayin - chet, lamed, yod). I'd like to see the statistical analysis of this one please? (this is pg. 89 in the book, btw)

RESPONSE A. You will find this in a Hebrew translation of the Koran, Mein Kampf, or a Woody Allen book. B. You will find encoded in the Torah that Koresh, Mohammed, Moon, etc. are jewels too.

PAPER Limiting our search of the Torah to skip distances of up to only 1000 letters, still yielded the encoded words Mohammed 2,328 times and Krishna 104 times. Furthermore, (David) "Koresh", the self-proclaimed Messiah who was responsible for the death of over 100 men, women and children, is found encoded in the Torah 2,729 times, at skip distances of up to only 1,000 letters.

LORI Why shouldn't their names appear in the Torah multiples of times? They affected a lot of lives.

RESPONSE The most basic point of Codes and Codes research has been missed - again. "Mickey" and "Bozo" are "coded" into the Torah millions of times -- did they "affect a lot of lives"?

PAPER We have no interest in being facetious about such lofty topics as who is the Messiah.

LORI Well of course not. Anyone with eyes to see can tell that you're not biased at all.

RESPONSE A. And neither is the Christian Codes researcher LaVonne Stiffler, Reverend Mike Somerville of the Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada (of which Grant Jeffrey is a member), Pastor Michas of the Nehemiah Trustees Covenant Fund, dozens of other Christian scholars, etc.etc.etc. who are appalled and deeply embarrassed by Grant Jeffrey and Yacov Rambsel.

B. Interesting how the comments stopped at page 6 of the 17 page Paper and nothing is said about:

* 1) All the contradictory examples that were found using the Rambsel/Jeffrey methodology.

* 2) All the "subjective" codes "proving" Jesus to be a False Prophet and False Messiah.

* 3) The most important statements about Codes that are italicized or in bold.

* 4) The refutation of "subjective codes" and interpreting any specific Codes.

* 5) The destruction of their fraudulent statistical claims.

* 6) The moral challenge to have an unbiased professional confirm, at the very least, the workmanship of their methodology.

* 7) The exposing of their false scientific claims regarding the Yeshua "codes", etc..etc.etc. And, of course, who can forget the words of Grant Jeffrey on page 219 of his book that were quoted in the Paper: "Another important point to note is that these Hebrew codes do not contain any hidden THEOLOGICAL OR DOCTRINAL MESSAGES." (Caps added) He then proceeds to write books claiming the codes contain hidden theological and doctrinal messages (i.e., Jesus is the Messiah).

Finally, Mr. Jeffrey's mindset and thought process are revealed, for the entire world to see, in the words he concludes his recent response with. Mr. Jeffrey states:

"Gamaliel then spoke the following words of advice to the Jewish council that was considering how to deal with the followers of Jesus: "And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God" (Acts 5:38,39). WE BELIEVE THAT GOD WILL REVEAL THE TRUTH ABOUT THESE YESHUA CODES TO THE MINDS AND SPIRITS OF ALL THOSE WHO SEEK HIM". (Caps added)

Often, when caught in obvious errors, some Christians will retreat to the position that the Jews can't understand because of "spiritual blindness" and all the other Jewish sins. When pressed hard enough, Jeffrey and his ilk are prepared to retreat to the same position - as is evidenced in his concluding statement above. It is this pattern of intellectual capitulation, which makes it very difficult for thoughtful Jews to take certain Christian claims seriously.

Rabbi Gamliel may have said what the Book of Acts claims, or he may not have; in his many other beloved writings he stands forth as a man who was gentle and compassionate, especially to people in error. But there is no doubt that the great early Church father Tertullian (b. 160CE), wrestling with the many inconsistencies he acknowledged in his own developing tradition, said the following: "Credo quia absurdum est." "I believe because it is absurd." This basis for faith was known as the "sacrificium intellectus" - the "sacrifice of the intellect." He was the creator of Church Latin, and wrote, "...the Son of God died, which is immediately credible because it is absurd. And buried, he rose again, which is certain because it is impossible."

The Jew accepts that by the hand of God the impossible may occur; he does not accept that the impossibility of something happening constitutes evidence that it must have occurred, since such a formulation indeed requires the deliberate rejection of God's most precious gift to mankind: a mind.

If Rambsel and Jeffrey wish to rest their Yeshua "codes" cases upon Tertullian's principles, nothing more need be said.

Summary.

It has been clearly demonstrated that:

* 1) All Of Pastor Rambsel and Grant Jeffrey's "Codes" regarding Jesus are not codes, and have absolutely nothing to do with the authentic Codes phenomenon. * 2) The methodology used to find the Jesus "Codes" is categorically different than the authentic Codes methodology. * 3) The methodology used to find the Jesus "Codes" is inherently invalid.

This is because:

* 1) No objective, statistical, scientific or logical evidence exists that would demonstrate that these ELS patterns were deliberately inserted into the text. * 2) In Fact, the evidence unequivocally shows exactly the opposite. All of the Jesus "Codes" have been proven to be statistically insignificant - i.e. the accidental appearance of these patterns is completely expected - and is therefore of no evidential value at all. * 3) The Rambsel/Jeffrey Methodology that was used to find these "patterns" is inherently invalid since it yields contradictory, illogical and absurd results. It is, therefore, incredibly deceptive to misrepresent these "patterns" as codes, and it is immoral to use them as proof or confirmation of a specific religion.

Rabbi Mechanic's Codes Lecture.

A posting by someone who recently attended a Discovery Seminar accurately described Rabbi Mechanic's Codes lecture. We have decided to include its main points.

The lecture was divided up into three parts. Part one began with him showing the "Hashoah" example and really building it up by discussing the significance of the 49 letter jump, and that the passage it was found in discusses Jews suffering a national tragedy and then reacting to it by questioning God. He really baited the audience that this really proves that the Author deliberately encoded that word, and therefore the Author of the Torah must be God. But he then chastised the audience for being so gullible. He said, "You didn't ask me how many passages Hashoah appears in that do not discuss the Jews dying or suffering, or how many times does Hashoah appear in the Torah!" And indeed, he said, "not only does Hashoah appear in other places, but it appears in every single passage and page of the Torah, because it is encoded in the Torah over 200,000 times! If you find a word encoded anywhere and everywhere, how can you say that the fact that you find it in a specific passage proves it was put there deliberately?

These examples proves nothing, he said, except how gullible uninformed people can be. He mentioned that there are other examples like these being taught and written about by all types of people, and that there are hundreds of thousands of books being sold showing coincidental patterns like Hashoah, the 49 letter Torah example, Yeshua, etc. claiming that they prove something. He then showed us how, in a "messianic" passage in Daniel (chapter 9, verses 24 - 27), Yeshua is encoded and the Christians are running around claiming they have proof, Mohammed is encoded there too and the Moslems are running around claiming they have proof, and Moon's name is encoded there too and the Moonies are running around claiming that they have proof !!

Part two began with an explanation that "since the whole question of Codes is whether they are design (God), or simply random coincidences - a question who's answer can be found only in the realm of statistics and mathematics - honest and objective scientific research must be performed". Then he told us who Witztum and Rips are, their credentials and how they got their research on the Famous Rabbi's Codes published in a peer-reviewed journal called Statistical Science. He then briefly explained the details of Doron Witztum's research - "minimums" and "proximity" etc. Then came descriptions of many Codes examples like Sadat, Gulf War, Diabetes, etc and their possible connection to the text. They were given with passion and it was obvious that he had convinced the entire audience of their authenticity.

Then he threw the curveball. Very briefly, he said "all of these examples have a major problem. When we asked top statisticians to evaluate these examples and measure the odds of them being a random occurrence, they told us that they are statistically unverifiable (not statistically insignificant like all the Yeshua "codes") This means that since they don't know how the experiment was conducted in terms of 'hidden failures' - maybe there were words that Witztum looked for, did not find and he isn't telling us about these failures - we cannot accurately calculate the odds of the Sadat or Diabetes Codes being random. In other words, these types of Codes were found using the EXACT SAME METHODOLOGY as Witztum and the Statistical Science Famous Rabbis experiment (and are, therefore, categorically different than the Yeshua "codes" methodology) but the odds of randomness CAN'T BE MEASURED.

Therefore, they are statistically inconclusive (not insignificant, like all the Yeshua "codes"). He then attacked connecting Codes to the text they were found. He explained how "where an ELS appears in a text cannot carry any weight in the process of trying to demonstrate that it is a Code and was deliberately inserted in the Torah, since you'll find all these words in every text and passage.... and interpretation is subjective - something that cannot be involved in the validation process since that process, by definition, must be objective." He then illustrated this point with a story how an anti-Semite once disrupted his lecture by saying that since Hitler was found encoded in the portion of Noah, this proves it was done deliberately because Hitler was a good man like Noah!!!

He then spent 15 minutes discussing the crucial difference between these types of unmeasurable Codes and the insignificant Yeshua ELS's. "Therefore, this second type of Codes cannot conclusively demonstrate deliberate insertion of Codes in the Torah. However, these examples are categorically different than the first type of examples - ELS's like Hashoah, Torah and Yeshua or any of the hundreds of billions of so-called codes that one will find in the text.

How are they different? The first category of ELS's has been proven to be statistically insignificant and totally expected by random and, more importantly, the methodology is inherently invalid. But the second category - that's much different - because since they are ELS's found using the exact same methodology as was accepted by Statistical Science, and there is only a statistical problem of calculating the exact odds; and since- unlike all the ELS's like Yeshua, Torah, and Hashoah - you will not find the Sadat, Chanukah and all the other ones I just showed you in any of the control texts - we can intuit - I repeat - intuit, that it is highly unlikely that these are coincidences and they were probably placed in the Torah by it's author."

Then he went on to say how appalled he and people who have spent years of their life researching this phenomenon are. He said that there are Christians who are writing books about "codes" and how sad it is to see how ignorant and confused they are about the authentic Codes. He then read a letter from a " famous Christian writer on Yeshua codes" (it was Grant Jeffrey) and how "this writer deceptively and fraudulently lumps the first category of statistically insignificant ELS's that were found with a fatally flawed methodology, together with the second type of ELS's that were found using the exact same methodology as the Famous Rabbi's example. He writes in his letter - and books and interviews - phrases like ' the Hitler, Sadat, or Yeshua codes". Lumping these three examples together is an unadulterated deception. The Yeshua ELS's and the 'Hitler' or 'Sadat' examples are categorically different intuitively, statistically, and in methodology. The examples like Yeshua are statistically insignificant, the words appear hundreds of thousands of times, you will find them in any large Hebrew text in the world, and the methodology is producing contradictory and absurd results.

The second type - Sadat, Diabetes, Gulf War, etc. were found with proven and accepted statistical methodology, are not found in any control texts and are therefore highly unlikely to be a coincidence. To lump the Yeshua ELS's together with the Codes that were found by Witztum, and then tell people that this is proof for Jesus being the Messiah, without informing them that the Yeshua ELS's are a totally different phenomenon, is appalling". He then read further from this letter where this Christian writer accuses Discovery of "teaching codes like Sadat and Gulf War which are the same as what he's doing with the Yeshua codes." He rolled his eyes and said, "how can this man write a book on Codes when he does not understand what Codes is really all about and he can't even permit himself to see the tremendous categorical difference between what he is finding and what Witztum has found??"

Part three began with him saying "but intuition is not enough. We want science, we want statistics and exact odds... " He then spent 30 minutes explaining the third type of Codes - the Rabbis Codes and a few of the other examples of statistically verifiable codes. He ended by saying that the only examples we can cite as powerful evidence of deliberate encoding are the statistically verifiable examples like the Famous Rabbis.

Rabbi Mechanic was then asked, "how can you say that Jesus is not coded in the Torah when he was one of the most important and pivotal men in history?" He said that maybe Jesus's name was deliberately encoded in the Torah, and maybe the Apostles too. The Christians should get a hold of some objective statisticians and scientists, follow the established rules, and statistically demonstrate that God encoded their names in the Torah. But all that would prove, he said, is that the author of the Torah encoded their names and therefore the author must be God because he knew the future. Like the Famous Rabbis example, it cannot prove anything more.